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I am Liz Goldwyn and I’ve been an obsessive vintage clothing collector since I was about 13 years old.

As long as I can remember I’ve been spellbound by second hand garments; spirits appear to haunt old ball gowns, spare gloves and faded velvet corsages. Their voices speak to me recalling presumably more exciting times. My obsessive interest in old clothing is such that I am convinced that every garment holds undiscovered revelations about its past lives.

My early teenage days were spent trolling thrift stores and dollar a pound clothing sales hoping to score a jackpot: like the 1960s evening Correge White satin skirt I once found buried at the bottom of a pile of garments or the 1940s printed crepe dresses my friends and I would wear swing dancing. Growing up in Los Angeles in the 90’s retro culture and style was encouraged, we didn’t know about contemporary designer labels back then nor would we be caught dead rocking such bougie clothes at the time. I mean I knew who Alaia was because of Clueless but that was about it.

When I was 17 I moved to New York to attend art school and I was introduced to the world of high fashion and real couture collecting. First via interning under the creative director Fabian Baron who was then at Harper Bazaar and then Calvin Klein; then Later by being in the right place at the right time and landing a job at the newly formed Fashion department at Sotheby’s Auction House. I didn’t know what I had been doing since I was 13 was serious until I started working with Sotheby’s and realized I had already begun to acquire a collection.

I always thought of it (my collection) as my dressing up box except that they were my street clothes. Once I moved to New York in the late 90’s I started collecting burlesque costumes, 1980’s Japanese designs and got into a big Margiela phase. Deconstructionist avant garde fashion was my fetish and then: I met Susan Cianciolo who back then was the Indie Queen of the NYC fashion scene. We quickly began a platonic love affair, collaborating and creating all sorts of magic and mischief together via her RUN collection.

Above (Fig A.) Liz and Susan BTS during a RUN presentation, courtesy of Susan Cianciolo and Bridget Donahue NYC.

Flash forward 25 years later and though our lives and the fashion world look entirely different now, the nitty gritty New York, London, Tokyo 90’s aesthetic that this archive really (en)captures will always hold a special place in my heart. Now it's time for these garments to find new homes, new lives to enter. Susan and I spoke recently to reminisce about what it was like way back when …

Liz Goldwyn:
Bringing me back to Canal street days...

Susan Cianciolo:
yes yes so many memories, so many adventures!

LG:Oh my gosh so many adventures I can’t even believe it! It feels like the 90’s were yesterday maybe because I’m still friends with so many people from that time —

SC:— Mhm Same.

LG:Yeah. I feel like Fashion and everything is still referencing that time-

SC:That’s true too.

LG:And I'm so excited about this project and just looking through all of my memories and my clothes with you- Do you remember when we first met in London?

SC:Yes I do. I do! That's a great memory because I was just- When you were just talking I was reflecting how Aaron is still just a dear friend, such an important person in my life and he introduced us.

LG: Aaron Rose! Bless Him! Crazy Aaron! Crazy Aaron! Hehe

SC:Yes Yes, thank God he is, you know, who he is. But I remember, he invited me to London, and then maybe, he was already there- I remember him picking me up at the airport, maybe. And then we went to your house, is that right?

LG:Yeah he was already there. And we had already met. We had already met when I moved to New York, when I was like 16 and we met through Alleged Gallery. I think it was early in you guys dating right? Cause he was with Brandon. And he was already there cause Mike Mills had a show. And Aaron was staying with me and he told me about you and I knew who you were. And then you showed up and I was so intimidated and In awe of you!

SC:OH my gosh! I think it was the opposite. I mean, I wasn’t dating Aaron long and then just wooed me with: “Come to London!” And then I showed up at your house. I just remember that it was so nice, just to have us stay there. I’d never met you before.

LG:And you were so cool, you had all these cool clothes on and you were so avant garde and deconstructionist. And-

SC:See Aaron told me I dressed like an old person!

LG:Oh my god! Speaking of which, do you remember when we were on the cover of Purple together —

SC:Yes! I just looked at the pictures from- not the cover picture but another picture. Another cute one, when we’re on the boat because that's my favorite one out of the group, I’ll send it to you-

LG:And Anders, Anders shot that right?


LG:And we literally look like- I mean I was, we were both in that phase right? Like we were always like that Babushka head scarves cause it was so cold and all the layers-

SC:Yes! I'm still like that. You know because when I was in London with Aaron and I loved that style then and He said “oh yeah, you know my friends, the Beastie Boys, they think I was with an old person cause I was dressed with this Babushka look.

LG:We weren’t trying to dress trying to be sexy!

SC:Haha yes.

LG:We weren’t trying to attract a man in this sort of Male Gaze way?! It's funny cause when I think of us being on the cover of Purple with that outfit… And you know this was when Purple was so different then to what it is and you know God Bless-

SC:Yes, that's a good point.

LG:But it was so different. It's just kinda funny to think of things we thought were cool and the way we dressed and how things have shifted.

SC:And the amount of cigarettes I smoked too. Remember? You were always on me about that.

LG:I was always kind Healthy with that- I liked the cannabis, I wasn’t into the tobacco!

SC:Haha I remember.

LG:And then we both, we were both a lot more sober than Aaron at that time-

SC:Yeah. Yes, I was just a heavy cigarette smoker, you know but…

LG:You were into pretty Hippie shit back then though-


LG:I remember you and a group of girls, didn’t you all drink your pee first thing in the morning or something like that?

SC:I will not confirm that on recording. Haha. But, I will say that one of my first yoga classes- I mean I started doing Yoga with Marcelo Krasilic in 1995. Then you took me to, um, to a yoga class and this like yoga spa place and that was more of like an official class out of Marcelo’s studio that I went to and that was it and I loved it forever. And it was Alena, whom I'm still friends with, who was my first teacher-

LG:Oh wow.

SC:Do you remember that?

LG:I think I was-

SC:Soho Sanctuary!

LG:Oh yeah totally! I think I was smoking a lot of Pot back then, so I think my memory is a little bit lapsed-

SC:I don’t even know where my memory is coming from today. I guess I'm just really channeling those times. But I have specific memories though - like your apartment in Canal street, getting dressed up, going out, forcing me to go out and wear like- a fur coat and high heels that were too small for me-

LG:And good vintage fur. Vintage fur. We never wore new fur.

SC:Vintage fur! I know! But it was like the dresses I made, like the evening dresses and you would say like “Ok now put this on! And Let’s go here!” Do you remember that?

LG:I do remember that. I mean that's when I was- When we met I think I was working at Sotheby’s at the time, helping to start the Fashion department there. And speaking of dressing like an old person, I would wear your clothes to work. And everyone there at that time was wearing like you know- cashmere, Hermes twin wets and Hermes scarves and they were trying to land a husband! And I was like, living Downtown, in a serious relationship with my now Ex Husband and so that whole world was foreign to me I didn’t know anything about it.


LG:And I would show up in your outfits. Your custom made outfits, with-like strings and thread hanging out, and like trailing a skirt. They didn’t even know what to make of me. The guards used to-

SC:That’s so Interesting. Your tag is hanging out!

LG:They’d follow me into the escalator and be like “Miss!” and I was like no it's supposed to be like that you just don’t get this Deconstructionist Fashion! Haha.

SC:I remember that time, people would stop me at the airport, everywhere saying You’re shirt is inside out, your tags on the outside, you have this thing hanging, you know. I love how at that time people would stop you but that wouldn’t happen now.

LG:No it wouldn't happen now. Because I think, well yeah. I mean in one way, I feel like now people have more, so much more expression of style. But on the other way, I feel like there's a lot more conformity. Like I love street wear but at the same time, you know I think there's a lot more of everyone looking the same. And another funny thing to me about now, when people are looking back at the time, the time were talking about now- the 90’s late 90’s. We were never wear those labels. We were never wearing those Dior saddle bags. That's not cool. It wasn’t cool. What was cool was to dress like-

SC:Find things in the garbage.

LG:Haha Oh my god! Exactly! No Literally! (they both laugh)

SC:In Chinatown!

LG:In Chinatown where we both lived! I’ve just been looking at all this old footage that they’ve unearthed for this project. And it's crazy to see. I just saw something that had you doing a performance on the streets of Chinatown. With these two girls in bathing suits lying in the middle of the street on Canal in the rain!

SC:Oh I wanna see that. Oh my gosh. That was just some insane stunt. Really.

LG:There's one of that show that we did at Lady Mendl’s Tea Salon. When you made me go on the runway, which I felt so intimidated by-

SC:I doubt that.

LG:I don't know, I kind of liked being behind the scenes in your world.

SC:Yeah yeah yeah. I understand that more NOW. But we all just jumped in. I wasn’t comfortable either, I just forced myself- I was in that show too. I think that was the fun of it. You know that you just felt awkward.

LG:Yeah, you know. I think I can appreciate- Like they just showed me that movie that Maggie Sackfien (spell) directed, Diadal? And I remember at the time, like Franky Rader is in it and Annie Ok- All these girls who were like models, like real models!

SC:Yes Yes. That was so nice, how there was such a natural mix, you know?

LG:I know thats what was cool about your world. And you know probably what I was intimidated by when I first met you, it was so different. It was so much of an art collective slash cult of Susan, which I loved. You just had such a knack for drawing in such interesting women and such interesting characters to you.

SC:Thank you. That's a very big compliment that means a lot to me.

LG:And you just were not afraid to do stuff that was so outside of the box for Fashion then.

SC:That's interesting too. You know I'm not looking back in the way we're talking right now. But when you say that, it's so impossible to really go back. But If I do go back, really to that time- It was just anything goes. You know? Sometimes, that was good and sometimes it was bad.

LG: What was bad?

SC:I mean just all the illegal stuff.

LG:Like what?

SC:Not bad bad. But um, you know when we did that film at the Javitz Center, putting- Like Chris Moritz shot that footage and Annie Ok was on all of these ropes really high up. There was no such thing as permits. Or there was no such thing as playing it safe. That's not bad, it's just interesting you know?

LG:Well we didn’t have social media back then. And we didn’t use the internet in that way at all.

SC:Basically I'm trying to, like, break it to my daughter, little by little. Yeah I kind of did illegal stuff you know? Hahah It's just, it's a different time, different everything. And that's just how it was. It just seems so straight now, you know?

LG:It's very corporatized.

SC: Yes Yes! It was a beautiful time, for that reason.

LG:You had to discover things. There is an amazing way in which Technology has connected us. And allows us to find people across the world who mirror our experiences. But there was something really amazing about having to dig through issues of The Face and ID. And get excited about things —

SC:— And I wrote to, last night, Griffith, who is still a good friend. And Nick is the one who put so much of my work in Face and ID in the early 90’s. And I was just thinking this morning about that. Thanks to him and also because of Aaron, I went over there [England] and I just went door to door. I had my collection in just like a tote bag and would wait outside and then go into the office and show them some pieces you know?

LG:It's so cool. I think about the other designers I was really into collecting at the time who seemed so, you know, so far away [at the time]. Like Comme des Garcons, Yohji Yamamoto and Margiela. And I think you guys all shared a show room right, at Staff back in those days?

SC:Margela was in that show room.

LG:Yeah, Margiela was in that show room.

SC:And again, I went to Tokyo alot with Aaron and I think thats when I would really feel such close admiration and also feeling such a closeness with all those Japanese Designers I loved at the time. Especially because the gallery I showed with you know, Disunder, was right around the corner from the Comme des Garcons shop. So I just remember- You know that was such a good influence. That it was just open arms like “come on! Come here!” And I mean I feel that way with London, cause Aaron would be busy doing things. I would just walk all day, stopping at galleries and say “will you look at my portfolio?” That was probably, you know London was probably a really big influence too. At that time, remember how special that whole vibe at that time there?

LG:London in the 90’s was pretty amazing. I mean New York in the 90’s was amazing too, you know before- You know I hate to sound like “And we used to walk a mile to school in the snow,” but-

SC:But that's true.

LG:But it was really cool! You know! If you made a plan to meet someone you had to just SHOW UP. Because we didn’t have like… we had pagers and stuff.

SC:Pagers! Oh my god. [overlap]

SC:Remember how you would just go to a club? And that's when you just would find each other. Or not.

LG:And clubs were so fun in those days too. I mean yeah, wild WILD!

SC:But a way to meet up.

LG:YEah I mean- I do, I do- I mean I kinda wanna be in bed early these days, I really wanna be. I don’t want to be a the tunnel doing lines in the bathroom anymore! That said, I’m really glad I got to experience New York and London in those days. And you know, Japan, we both had a long relationship and working in Japan. And I think that I got introduced to/

SC:Oh yeah Shiseido!

LG:Shiseido around the time you were working a lot in Japan then. And then actually when, I can’t remember, it was more than one show we did together when I was at Shiseido. But I remember what was so amazing with Shiseido and working with the Japanese, was that if you gave me a proposal for a show, that would never get passed today. You would maybe give me a paragraph that was like a poem. Like literally a poem! The most abstract thing ever. No sort of like: I need this amount of money or this is how its going to look like. And they would totally get it.


LG:In this heart centered way toward this abstract vision. And say yes! Let's give thousands of dollars to make this happen!

SC:And sometimes it was just a thousand and I could make a film with that.

LG:And you could do that. You could do that then. And this sense of a Happening like if you were there’s there was no other way to see it again. It was ephemeral.

SC:Yes! Yes! Yes! Beautiful. I love that so much.

LG:What was that thing we did in Italy? Or were we both in Italy at the same time? Was it the Art in Fashion Biennale? Was it in Venice?

SC:I tell my daughter that particular story a lot. So it was the Biennale in Florence and Terry Jones and Trish curated it. And I was there, and I made a film with Benino Sorrenti. It was fashion and Film and they paired people up so I was paired with Finina. And you were there at the same time, also with Sotheby’s. And then they did a Big BIG opening at the same time as the premier of the Cinderella Movie [Ever After]. So it was all at the same time. And do you remember that crazy party? And then, I was just- I wish I could go back in time and just change things because I was so mortified and embarrassed to even go. Cause Fininna decided to publish thousands of nude pictures of me in ID. And I was so embarrassed. And I remember you and Tiffanny were just saying to me like “who cares!” And I wore a dress of mine but I just felt so shy. And you were so glamorous and just went to these things all the time. But when you got to a certain room everyone was screaming, you told me to, like: “Take as many crystals as you can and put them down your bra and your underwear. And fill your bags!” Do you remember that?

LG:I love that you’re reminding me of what a Hippie, freaky Witch that I’ve always been! Hahah

SC:And so then I took those crystals and I made this bag with them with the piece of silk from my grandmother's wedding dress, and it was in the Sotheby’s catalog.

LG:Oh my gosh!

SC:And I put one of those crystals in the lining of that bag. And I just brought them home. It was just like crazy
Like, it's still inside the lining of the bag. And I just brought them home but it was just it was just like mayhem, like women screaming and going crazy. And it was in this treasure chest and everyone was like taking as many crystals and you were yelling at me, like take as many as you can! And I just remember that night, like specifically, because I think I've found one randomly and I told- I gave it to my daughter. And I said it's like I found a like a purple lavender one and her name was like and then I just told her that whole story. And just seeing Drew Barrymore there and and I remember like you and Tiffany went and had like your hair done. And then Tiffany was like, Oh, just be quiet about those new pictures. And just, you know, do you remember all that and I had just gotten married. So then Erin, I took a boat and hiked up a mountain to the Citadel, but after that-

LG:I remember when he had the peanut allergy-

SC:and he had that allergy the night of that dinner of that Princess ball you like and we had to, I think go to the hospital or something. It was like so many things in one night.

LG:There was a lot that was really Yes, I do remember that it's funny, because you know, I'll often stick a rose quartz crystal in my bra, like all the time when I have to go certain places.

SC:So I have, I have one in my pocket right now.

LG:And then I forget it's in there and take them out. And its falling all over the floor, I used to keep lavender oil in my bag for things like that, because I would get you know, a little bit intimidated by red carpet photo stuff. And I would huff it before.

SC:I have some in my bag now! Just for daily use.

LG:It was such an interesting time to to go between like the world I was living in sort of like, you know, downtown or art world and then going into this world of like Sotheby's where I was expected to be, in a totally different position and deal. I had never been around like aristocracy or anything like that before. So it was like, and I was really young.

SC:you were so good at it though. I was not.

LG:I think I'm like not I can be kind of like vulnerable and shy for sure. But I think in situations like that I like I'm practiced in putting my face like a mask on, you know. Aaron was really good at it Aaron was like is like oh my view.

SC:I think both of you because I felt like he was probably he was like very disappointed that I just was so like beyond shy. I had never experienced anything. Like any of that. Anything in my life. So it was so shocking, you know. I learned a lot from youm, like some of the things you would take me to I was just petrified. I remember that. Very well.

LG:have you looked at on those nude photos like now?

SC:Well, I mean, the nice thing is, Bonita and I got together just recently, she called me she was in New York and she just found all this footage of that raw footage of that film she made but it was just raw footage of Aaron and I when she was making that film. I had never I don't even remember it when I saw it. It was absolutely beautiful. So I said “Could I use it for a show? That is up right now in Spain?”- like it just closed and so she re edited made a film, and it was great to just reminisce about that time and really feel so appreciative of those photos. She's shot now, you know, but I and so, thankfully we're still very close friends. And I just always remembered to Tiffany saying if I had a body like that, I'd be glad for those nude photos but I felt just so embarrassed of my body and you know how then you look back and think oh my Gosh, you know.

LG: I should have taken more nudes. Yeah, yeah. I totally agree. It's so funny because this is like way before the era of celebrity sex tapes or sending nudes to people or any gamble.

SC:There's no selfies stuff or nothing.

LG:We were taking pictures that we're taking like polaroids. I remember you taking pictures of me in one of your denim skirts that you made me topless.

SC:I love that picture . And that was for an ad.

LG:Yeah, it was for an ad in Richardson for being Richardson. Yeah, Richardson, I remember being mortified at the time.

SC:And I look back and it’s sexy.

LG:And I was like, first of all, this is like, so not sexy in the context of what was else was in that magazine at that time. And, and also, again, not male, gaze-y. But like when I think about like, sexuality and dressing back then. And like now I think my gosh, wow, it was Yeah, I was so uncomfortable. I was so uncomfortable with my sexuality back then. And I think I was, you know, it was in the process of doing my first book and film Pretty Thing and kind of exploring that in my work. But when I think about when do you remember when I took Anne McNally for a fitting at your studio, and she took her clothes off to try and your stuff and she was wearing matching hot pink lingerie. And you and I just both looked at each other, and looked at me.

SC:Who’s Anne McNally?

LG:You don’t remember Ann McNally? She was French,beautiful. She was a really close friend of mine back at the time. She's Anna Wintour’s best friend.

SC:What did she look like? It's hard for me to place her right now.

LG:I’ll send you her picture. But I just, I remember her disrobing at your studio. And that being the first time she was, she was a bit older. And I remember, she had on this like hot pink lacy matching lingerie. And I remember seeing her and thinking, that's what I want to be. That's what I want to look like, I'm never wearing mismatched lingerie again.

SC:The name is familiar. And when I see a picture, I'll- I'll remember. For sure.

LG:Yeah, I just think it's like interesting, like now. And I really again, think about that time and how you and I were collaborating and the kind of way in which we would present ourselves. Again, it was not this aim of..

SC:It’s really interesting, isn't it from such different worlds and we were such close friends, and did a lot of collaborating now that now that you you know, mentioned a few different projects. It's true.

LG:I mean, there's the burlesque costume that you made me is in this project, which is so so cool. That was so special. I have pictures of you giving that to me.

SC:Oh, I love that night. Your birthday dinner.

LG: Yeah, my birthday. At a pizzeria in New York. I know. And then it was so cool. As someone who collected old things, old like military supplies, and, you know, early 20th century glass, beaded buttons, and all sorts of things. It was cool to collaborate together and bring like some of those items to you and see what you would do with it.

SC:Yes. Well, you know, I just remembered also, in Italy, you introduced me to these very, you know, old school underwear shops, and I was so fascinated by that. And that had a really big impact on a lot of my work. Do you remember?

LG:Yeah, the ecclesiastical the nuns underwear shops I loved-

SC:I love these wool, you know, undergarments.

LG:I love that I love ecclesiastical fashion. Actually, I think it's one of my favorite genres. And so Under looked.

SC:yeah, that's really true. So true.

LG:There's something there's something I find very alluring and, and erotic in a way about the mystery of what you can't see.

SC:And the yes yes, I totally agree.

LG: Or the chaste. Yeah, oh my god. It's so wild to like, look back on on these pieces in this time and, and think and I think what was interesting too, is that in a way…[pause] I think I had always struggled if, if I've worked with other like designer male designers or artists, with this being labeled like a “Muse” because I feel like that word —

SC:I don't like that word, though?

LG:No, it takes agency away, right?

SC:Yeah. Cause then I'm always wondering, well, I've never I don't feel like I've ever used that word. And if I have in my life, I'm sorry. Because I feel like, what about that person being their own person? You know? That how I look at it.

LG:I know but you must have been in that role too. At certain points in your career? Where you inspired other people? S; but I just don’t feel that… I don’t know, I don’t know its just a personal thing for me. Because, I feel like when someone inspires you and it's their whole spirit and soul. I don’t feel Muse is a big enough title, you know?

LG:Well, I agree.

SC:Thats how I look at it more from my side. When I'm making clothes, with someone that inspires me.

LG: Yeah, I mean I don’t think that's what our relationship was.

SC:No, not at all. I feel like you taught me a LOT, a lot, a lot. And brought so much to the table like, you know, Trims and materials, historical references. Or just coming from different worlds. You just introduced me to a lot. And then look at how well you saved the things I made. You know, and I’m very grateful. Really, so grateful for that.

LG:I'm grateful too. I feel like even I’m still absorbing and integrating some of the things I’ve learned from you, even at this point of my life now. In particular, looking back at this work. Thinking about how you were so unafraid to be yourself. Even if that was not in step with what was happening at the time, You just kind of didn’t give a fuck.

SC:I had nothing to lose. I felt like that, like what could be worse than everything going wrong? Like I had nothing to hold on to? Do you know what I mean? So the risks I could take, I could take very high risks. That I think it's just the right timing, the right place. [Sigh] Yeah. I also feel we all met at such a special time, and that's so mystical. I feel like even before we came to this earth we wrote this kind of letter that said “I’ll see you there at this time and we’re just gonna do all these magical things together. And we’ll just change our lives!”

LG:I like that. I like that!

SC:I really believe that. I believe that. I really do. I really really do. And then, its the same for me, these memories will come up and I realize that was just extraordinary. And I wouldn't be the person I am today if I didn’t do those things with you Liz, you know?

LG:I a hundred percent feel the same way. And I love thinking about where your practice is now. You’re fully ensconced as an artist. I mean you were always an artist, you were just working through a medium of Fashion at one point. But you know, pretty quickly you transitioned from doing a runway show into multi-media, film, installation, performance. When I think of the show you did at Alleged in the Meatpacking when he was on Washington, I think. Where you had the perfume?! Remember I sold a couple of your bottles?!

SC:yes! And you were in the back there! Holding court, dressed up with Jennifer and doing perfume samples for the customers. Remember?

LG:I know, speaking of illegal! You fully operated an illegal restaurant in a gallery! Heheh.

SC:See those are the things I’m trying to tell you that- like it's bad. But it's so bad it's good?! And I’m now currently operating an illegal restraunt again out of my home once a month. So things don’t really change?!The secret supper club is just in my heart forever. I mean I just use all those references. And I try to say, just in passing “ Yeah I did a perfume.” And I don’t think anyone believes me. But, we really did do a perfume! You know?

LG:And it was expensive too! It was limited edition! I want to say it was like, $600 back then.

SC:The bottles were hand blown glass. Remember that?

LG:And I felt like it was, for me, I wanted the challenge of like: selling. I was like “I’m gonna sell this perfume goddammit!”

SC:That was so so fun. Wow.

LG:I love it. It's so special. And it's so special to talk to you.

SC:Same for me. It's very very touching in my heart. I really can’t tell you enough. And really because there were times that were so hard for me too. So, like in order to try to be a designer and artist. And now that I can just now do what I like to do. I’m just grateful to you. You supported me and understood me so much in such deep way. You know, I’m still processing that. You were so advanced to really understand and really be there for me. So thank you.

LG:Thank you! Thank you so much. Yeah even talking to right now, its making me think alot about where in my life and in my work that is so much around sexuality. And thinking of that time period in Fashion. And how that intersected with my discovery of my own sexuality.


LG:And how I presented it [sexuality]. And just thinking of it in the larger context of going over some of these magazines and ways in which we dressed. It's just quite interesting. It's quite interesting that we literally just- like that thing you were saying about how Aaron saying that the Beastie Boys [laughing]-

SC:I just remember that cause it's so funny that- like he specifically pointed that [the way Liz and Susan dressed] out. Yeah, but then when you brought it up, how we dressed for that [Purple Magazine] Cover it was in that style.

LG:But if I was to look back on us. I would say we were super sexy! (laughing)

SC:I know! Those tight denim skirts. And in London, do you remember? That's when I custom fitted yours. I remember that now. For the first time.

LG:Yeah because- I was definitely always thinking about sex. And I was always thinking about it for myself at that time, and the way that I dressed. Not like: will this be attractive to a man? I was thinking about: how will this garment empower me and my sexuality?

SC:And make yourself feel sexy! Right?


SC: And that’s totally what it was about that. And you would always point out: You know your clothes are so sexy. But I really felt that it was about: how do you feel that within yourself that day? It's like you have mentioned a few times about [inaudible] it wasn’t about that all.

LG:And working so closely as you did, and we all did back then- with such an incredible team of very strong women. Who are all individually doing things either as artists, or filmmakers or models or personalities or writers or poets, in their own way. You’re kind of building on that collective experience of these strong, sexy, powerful women. And again, it wasn’t what we were seeing reflected back to us on the rest of the runways or in Vogue at that time. It was own little bubble. Which was so cool about that Deconstructionist movement as a whole. It kind of rejected this- in order to be beautiful or sexy by the mainstream I have to fit into this prescribed look. It was really like, let's let our freak flag fly!

SC: Hahah Yes. Totally. That’s what appealed to you, right?

LG:Yeah because I am a freak! Haha.

SC: Oh that's so great. It’s so great to reminisce about it. And remember deeply all the feelings then. There was definitely a lot of love too, you know?

LG:A lot of love. A lot of heartache.

SC: Yes! A lot of heartache.

LG:A lot of broken hearts!

SC:Yes! A lot! Endless amounts. Which is good. It's good to experience everything.

LG:I know! You have to have the highs and the lows.

SC:Mhm. Mhm. And just feel everything.

LG:Feel it all, all at once.

SC:And those were about that too.

LG:They were. There’s a lot of literal blood, sweat and tears in those clothes.

SC:Hehe Yes.Yes.

LG:And potentially urine! No, I’m just kidding! Haha.

SC:Hahah. Again no comment.

LG:No comment. Cannot confirm, nor deny.

SC:Exactly. Hahah

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